PARTICIPANTS:
Senator Hillary Clinton (NY);
Former Senator John Edwards (NC); and
Senator Barack Obama (IL)
MODERATORS:
Wolf Blitzer (CNN);
Suzanne Malveaux (CNN); and
Joe Johns (CNN)
JOHNS: Senator Clinton, good evening.
The number-one issue for Americans of both parties is the economy, and today the news is simply not good. Markets around the world are in a tailspin because of fears of a U.S. recession. So far this year, the Dow has lost nearly 9 percent.
How much money would your stimulus plan put in the pockets of the average South Carolinian?
CLINTON: Well, Joe, I'm glad you started with the economy, because that is the number-one issue. What's been happening in the markets, what's been happening with the home mortgage crisis, $100-a-barrel oil, so many of the issues that are really at the kitchen tables of Americans today and what they're talking to me about.
We have to stimulate the economy. I began calling for some kind of economic action plan back at the beginning of December. I have a package of $110 billion; $70 billion of that would go towards dealing with the mortgage crisis, which, unfortunately, I don't think that President Bush has really taken seriously enough.
I would have a moratorium on home foreclosures for 90 days to try to help families work it out so that they don't lose their homes. We're in danger of seeing millions of Americans become basically, you know, homeless and losing the American dream.
I want to have an interest rate freeze for five years, because these adjustable-rate mortgages, if they keep going up, the problem will just get compounded. And we need more transparency in the market.
Then, I think we need to give people about $650, if they qualify -- which will be millions of people -- to help pay their energy bills this winter. You know, there are so many people on fixed incomes and working people who are not going to be able to afford the spike in energy costs.
We need to make sure that we start jumpstarting the jobs in this country again. That's why I want to put money into clean energy jobs, green-collar jobs, and also make sure we have a fund that will help communities deal with the consequences of the home foreclosure crisis and make sure the unemployment system is up to the task.
And then we will have money for rebates, but let's make them the right rebates. Everything we know about President Bush's plans would leave 50 million to 70 million Americans out, because a lot of our seniors on fixed incomes don't pay income taxes. But that doesn't mean they're immune from the energy costs and the health care costs and everything else that's going up around them.
And we have a huge number of working people who thankfully don't pay income tax. They pay payroll tax. They pay a lot of other taxes. President Bush's plan would do nothing to help them.
But thankfully we've got leaders of the Congressional Black Caucus here who are going to make sure that we get the right kind of stimulus. And that's what the Democrats are going to support.
It's imperative we do it. It's a part of economic justice, which on Dr. King's holiday is part of his unfinished legacy.
BLITZER: All right.
Senator Obama?
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: Well, we do meet on the King holiday. And I think it's important to remember that, in the march on Washington, where Dr. King always talks about -- or it's always repeated, the dream speech that is so famous -- that march was for jobs, as well as justice.
And, unfortunately, we have not made the kind of progress that we need in having a balanced economy, and George Bush has made it worse.
George Bush has consistently skewed our tax code to the wealthy. He has squandered billions of dollars in a war that I believe should never have been authorized and should have never been waged.
(APPLAUSE)
We have not made the investments that are needed in our school system. You travel around South Carolina along the corridor of shame, and you've got children who are going to schools that were built in the 1800s. And they are not able to compete in an international economy.
So it is absolutely critical right now to give a stimulus to the economy. And Senator Clinton mentioned tax rebates. That wasn't the original focus of her plan. I think recently she has caught up with what I had originally said, which is we've got to get taxes into the -- tax cuts into the pockets of hard-working Americans right away.
And it is important for us to make sure that they are not just going to the wealthy. They should be going to folks who are making $75,000 a year or less, and they should be going to folks who only pay payroll tax, but typically are not paying income tax.
If we do that, then not only can we stimulate the economy, those are the folks who are most likely to spend money right away.
BLITZER: Do you agree with her, $650 is a good number for a tax rebate?
OBAMA: Well, I think that we are going to have to get some immediate money. What I do is I say, for a typical family, $500 for a tax rebate per family.
But also, for senior citizens, get a supplement to their Social Security check, because they get that every month. We know exactly how to do it. And that would provide seniors all across the country right away some money to help pay for their heating bills and other expenses that they've got right now.
BLITZER: Correct me if I'm wrong, Senator Edwards. Your plan does not call for a tax rebate, does it?
EDWARDS: No, that's exactly right. Can I start by saying how proud I am to be here tonight, a debate sponsored by the Congressional Black Caucus on Dr. King's holiday?
And particularly on this night, when we're honoring the legacy of Dr. King, central to his work was the idea of fighting for real equality between the races, fighting to end poverty in America, his famous Poor People's Campaign, which he was engaged in at the time of his death, fighting for garbage workers, actually, in Memphis.
And the chasm between the rich and the poor in America is wide. It is getting worse. The rich are get richer. And we've added five million people to the poverty rolls in just over the course of the last seven years, which is...
BLITZER: But what about the stimulus package?
EDWARDS: Here's what we should do. That's why I'm getting to this. What Bush does is he leaves 50 million -- as Hillary pointed out -- 50 million Americans. They're low-income Americans and moderate-income Americans. They are completely left out of the stimulus package.
If we're actually going to deal with the legacy of Dr. King, if we're going to deal with this issue of poverty -- and I have a comprehensive plan to do that, it is the cause of my life, to end poverty in this country -- we also have to include all Americans in this stimulus plan.
Now, one difference between what I have proposed and what my two colleagues have proposed is I have done something that not only stimulates the economy, but creates long-term benefits, investment in green infrastructure, which creates jobs.
Instead of just getting money out in the short term, this will actually create jobs over the long term, create green infrastructure.
Yes, we need to do something about the mortgage crisis. I want to mention one last thing.
There is one other issue that was mentioned in passing by the two of them, which is the issue of jobs. And there is a difference between myself and my colleagues on this issue of jobs, because they both supported the Peru trade deal.
My view is the Peru trade deal was similar to NAFTA. And this is crucial to the state of South Carolina...
BLITZER: But...
EDWARDS: ... no, no -- and crucial to the state of the South Carolina and jobs in South Carolina. South Carolina has been devastated by NAFTA and trade deals like NAFTA.
BLITZER: I just want to be precise. What you're proposing are really long-term objectives. In terms of a short-term stimulus package, you disagree with them on an immediate tax rebate.
EDWARDS: No, no. What I'm saying is if we do what we should do to green the economy, if we change our unemployment insurance laws, modernize them to make them available to more people, to more Americans, if we in fact give help to the states, which gets money straight into the economy and we deal with the mortgage crisis in a serious way with a home rescue fund to provide transitional financing for those people who are about to lose their homes, all those things will stimulate the economy.
BLITZER: I'll let both of you respond, but let me let Senator Obama respond first.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: Let me just respond to a couple of things. I think the idea of bringing jobs is important, which is why that's central to my energy plan. But, Wolf, you're exactly right, that is a long-term agenda. That is not going to deal with the immediate crisis we have right now.
You've got the European markets dropped 5 percent. The expectation is that the Dow Jones tomorrow may do the same. We could be sliding into an extraordinary recession unless we stimulate the economy immediately. That's point number one.
Point number two, on trade, John is exactly right that you travel around South Carolina and you see the textile mills that John's father worked in closed, all over the region. And it is absolutely true that NAFTA was a mistake.
I know that Hillary on occasion has said -- just last year said this was a boon to the economy. I think it has been devastating, because our trade agreements did not have labor standards and environmental standards that would assure that workers in the U.S. were getting a square deal.
But the only thing I want to differ on John is this whole notion of Peru. The Peru trade deal had labor and environmental agreements in it. Peru is an economy the size of New Hampshire. Over 90 percent of the goods coming from Peru already come in under various free trade agreements.
And, John, you voted for permanent trade relations with China, which I think anybody who looks at how we structure trade in this country would tell you has been the biggest beneficiary and the biggest problem that we have with respect to trade, particularly because they're still manipulating the currency.
BLITZER: I'll let you respond, but, Senator Clinton, I want to get back to the issue of an immediate stimulus for the economy.
CLINTON: That's what I want to get back to.
BLITZER: Because who knows what the markets are going to be like tomorrow and there are a lot of people out there who are suffering already. But go ahead and respond.
CLINTON: Well, I want to just clarify a couple of points. My original plan was $70 billion in spending with a $40 billion contingency that was part of the original plan, in order to have that money available for tax rebates.
I hope that we could do it through spending, and here's why: I don't want to necessarily open up the tax code while we've got Republicans in the Senate who are going to try to come back and open up making Bush's tax cuts permanent.
(APPLAUSE)
I understand that that's a real risk. So I was hoping to be able to do it through spending, but the crisis has gotten too deep, and what happened in the markets globally today is a huge wakeup call.
The president should convene the working group on financial markets. He should ask the secretary of treasury to do this immediately. I know that there's been talking going on, but the president's proposed stimulus package is not adequate. It is too little too late and it doesn't give enough money to the people who are hardest hit by the increased costs in energy and everything else that's going up around them.
(APPLAUSE)
As a further point, I do believe that the green-collar job piece of this is important. That's why I have $5 billion to do it. There are programs already. Oakland, California, Mayor Dellums is working to have a green-collar job program. We could put hundreds and hundreds of young people to work right now, putting solar panels in, insulating homes.
That would give them jobs and it would move us more quickly to a green economy. And I think that if you look at this from a jobs and justice, a stimulation and long-term planning effort, we need to lay down the markers now. And that's why the Congress, under the leadership of a lot of the people who are chairs of committees and subcommittees who are here today are going to play a major role in this. And we've got to hold the line against President Bush with his ill-advised approach to stimulating the economy.
BLITZER: All right. We're staying on topic. We're staying on this subject, but I want Joe Johns to ask another question so we can continue this dialogue.
JOHNS: All right. Well, Senator Edwards, let's dig a little deeper on the economic mess we're in currently.
In 2006, a study from the Center for Responsible Lending found that African-Americans are something like 30 percent more likely to be sold a subprime loan than white borrowers with similar credit histories and income.
The South Carolina NAACP said last month that the American dream for too many Americans, too many African-Americans is a national nightmare. The national NAACP has even filed a class-action lawsuit against 12 nationwide lenders.
So the bottom-line question really is: Do you believe that lenders have specifically targeted African-Americans? Is this subprime mess really also an issue of race?
EDWARDS: Yes, is the answer. I think they have targeted - if they haven't been racially motivated, I don't know. There's no way for me to know what's inside their head.
But what they have done is they have targeted the lowest income, most vulnerable families. And anybody who's paying any attention to what's going on in America today understands, if you are African-American in this country today, you are likely to have a net worth of about 10 percent of what white families have.
This is not an accident. I mean, we can go put our heads against the wall and pretend that the past never happened, pretend that we didn't live through decades of slavery, followed by decades of segregation, followed by decades of discrimination, which is still going on today.
(APPLAUSE)
That history and that legacy has consequences. And the consequence has been that African-American families are more vulnerable. They're more vulnerable to payday lenders. They're more vulnerable to predatory lenders, which is why we desperately need a national law, which I have proposed, which would crack down on these predatory payday lenders.
It's not enough to do it state-by-state, because these predators just move from place to place to place.
I was in a neighborhood in Cleveland a few months ago, one-block radius, 38 houses under foreclosure, middle-class, African-American neighborhood. These people work. They put everything they had into their homes. And they were about to lose them because these predators have come into the neighborhood and taken everything they have.
So here are the solutions. Number one, we need a national predatory lending law. Number two, we've got to help low-income families save.
EDWARDS: They have nothing to fall back on. Many have no bank account. They don't deal with financial institutions. We need to teach financial literacy, we need to match what they're able to save so that they actually have something that they can fall back on in case they get in a place where they need more money.
(APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: All right. I want both Senator Clinton and Senator Obama to respond.
But, Senator Edwards, Senator John McCain, the Republican presidential candidate, he supported the surge from the beginning. I think all three of you opposed the surge from the beginning. He says now the surge is working, there's military progress, the level of violence has gone down, and that the United States must not surrender in Iraq. It must win that war in Iraq.
Why do you believe Senator McCain is wrong?
EDWARDS: He's wrong because George Bush himself said the entire reason for the surge was to create an environment for political progress. Everyone from the Iraq Study Group, to even Bush recognized -- and if Bush recognizes it, man, it's really got to be out there.
(LAUGHTER)
EDWARDS: Even President Bush recognizes that unless the Sunni and Shia reach some political reconciliation, there cannot be stability in Iraq. And the problem with this definition and evaluation of where the progress has been made is that there has been no meaningful political progress.
There has been a little bit, in fairness. A little bit, but very little. And I don't think it changes anything.
The one thing I would say is -- and I would actually like for both of them to have a chance to respond to is this -- what I have said very clearly, all of us has said, we would end the war. And I don't have any doubt that all of us are committed to that, I don't doubt that. But how aggressively and how quickly is an important question.
And I have said in the first year that I am president, I will have all combat troops out of Iraq. All combat missions will end in Iraq, and there will be no permanent military bases in Iraq.
(APPLAUSE)
EDWARDS: I have not heard -- now, admittedly, just to be fair, I don't hear everything they say on the campaign trail, but I have not heard either of them say that definitively. So I would be interested in knowing whether they will commit to having all combat troops out and ending combat missions in the first year.
BLITZER: Senator Obama?
OBAMA: John, what I have said, and I've said repeatedly, is I want to be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in, but I want to make sure that we get all our combat troops out as quickly as we can safely. Now, the estimates are maybe that's two brigades per month. At that pace it would be some time in 2009 that we had our combat troops out, depending on whether Bush follows through on his commitment to draw down from the surge.
We don't know that yet, but understand what's at stake here. John is exactly right that the question is, how do we create a stable Iraqi government where our troops are not required to remain permanent bases in -- and a permanent occupation in Iraq?
We are spending $9 billion to $10 billion every month. That's money that could be going right here in South Carolina to lay broadband lines in rural communities, to put kids back to school.
And so when John McCain says we'll be there for 50 or 60 or 100 years, it is not just the loss of life, which is obviously the most tragic aspect of it, it's also the fact that financially it is unsustainable. We will have spent $2 trillion at least, it's estimated, by the time this whole thing is over. That's enough to have rebuilt every road, bridge, hospital, school in America, and still have money left over.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: But just one last point I want to make.
We are seeing Al Qaida stronger now than at any time since 2001. That is a significant threat that has to be dealt with. Because we have been distracted, we have ended up seeing a more dangerous situation, and so we are not -- this is not just a matter of who is right and who is wrong about having gone to war or the surge. It's also, how do we deal with the future threats? And as long as we're bogged down in Iraq, we are not going to be able to deal with those future threats.
BLITZER: Senator Clinton, do you want to respond to Senator Edwards asking you whether you're ready to commit to all combat troops being out of Iraq within a year?
CLINTON: What I have said is that I will move as quickly as possible. I hope to have nearly all out within a year.
We don't know what we're going to inherent from President Bush, but there is a big problem looming on the horizon that we had better pay attention to, and that is President Bush is intent upon negotiating a long-term agreement with Iraq which would have permanent bases, permanent troop presence. And he claims he does not need to come to the United States Congress to get permission, he only needs to go to the Iraqi parliament.
That is his stated public position. He was recently in the region, and it is clear that he intends to push forward on this to try to bind the United States government and his successor to his failed policy.
I have been strongly opposed to that. We should not be planning permanent bases and long-term troop commitments.
CLINTON: Obviously, we've got to rein in...
(APPLAUSE)
... President Bush. And I've proposed legislation and I know that members of the Congressional Black Caucus are looking at this, as well. We need legislation in a hurry which says, "No, Mr. Bush, you are the president of the United States of America. You cannot bind our country without coming to the United States Congress." This is a treaty...
(APPLAUSE)
... that would have to be presented and approved, and it will not be.
BLITZER: I just want to tell the presidential candidates and everyone, we're just getting started. We're going to continue. We have to take a quick, quick commercial break.
When we come back, you're going to see a different set. We're all going to be seated up here. All the rules are going to go away. We're going to have an important conversation, an important -- whatever rules are left, that is. They're all going to go away and we're going to discuss the issues in this campaign.
Much more of our debate here when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We're rearranging the furniture here on the stage at Myrtle Beach in South Carolina. The Senators are getting ready for part two of this debate, which will be much more informal. There will really be no rules in this part two.
We're going to go through many other substantive issues. The candidates are just getting ready to come out. They're bringing the chairs out right now. Senator Hillary Clinton, Senator Barack Obama, Senator John Edwards will be here. We'll be going through the issues.
Much more of our coverage right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to the Democratic presidential debate. We're here in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina with three Democratic presidential candidates.
BLITZER: I also want to remind all of our viewers out there in the United States and around the world they can always go to cnnpolitics.com. They can continue to watch what's going on here, get a lot more information on the positions, the substantive positions of all of these candidates. If they need more information -- you need more information, that's the place to go: cnnpolitics.com.
I want to begin the second part of this debate with a question for Senator Obama, and I want to refer to Congressman Charlie Rangel, one of the most powerful members, one of the most powerful members of the House of Representatives, and specifically on this Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, a day so important to all of us here in the United States.
He's a supporter of Hillary Clinton and he said yesterday, and I'm quoting now, that he likes you, Senator Obama. He's very proud of your accomplishments. But he went on to say that "Black voters should not do what makes us feel good, but what's good for our great nation."
And I wonder if you want to respond to that notion that it may make a lot of African-Americans feel good to vote for you, but it might not necessarily be the best thing for the United States.
OBAMA: Well, first of all, Charlie's absolutely right that African-Americans should vote for what's best for them, their children, and this country, and the same way that I think Hillary...
(APPLAUSE)
... you know, Hillary feels that women should vote for what's best for them, their children, and their country.
EDWARDS: Would you mind saying that...
OBAMA: And the same way that John...
EDWARDS: Say that a little more often.
OBAMA: Absolutely. Same way that John, I think, he wants white males to vote for...
(LAUGHTER)
EDWARDS: And women and African-Americans.
OBAMA: So I think Charlie's right in principle. Now, obviously, he and I differ in terms of what would be best for the nation. I wouldn't be running if I didn't think that I could bring the country together most effectively, that I can overcome the special interests in Washington most effectively, that I can inspire the American people to get involved in their government most effectively.
So his principle is right. He just has miscalculated in his equation. But I get along great with Charlie, so I'm sure that - as president, I look forward to working with him as chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee to get things done for families of America.
(APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: I'll move on to the next question from Suzanne unless either of you want to make a comment.
Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: It's kind of related to Senator Edwards. I've spoken with a lot of African American voters in South Carolina this week, and a lot of them say that electing a black president, that this would change the way whites see African Americans and the way African Americans see themselves.
Do you think that this is a valid consideration for voters in determining who's president?
EDWARDS: Well, first of all, I don't think it's for me to tell anybody, and particularly not African Americans, what they should consider when they're voting. I think they ought to be able to consider anything that they think is fair and reasonable and important to them.
What I would say, though, is on the issue, since we are here on Dr. King's day, on the issues of equality, ending poverty in America, the things that he devoted so much of his life to, no one has been -- and with all respect to the two other candidates, no one has been more aggressive on these issues than I have.
I mean, ending poverty is the cause, the single most important cause in my life. I'm not suggesting for a minute the two of them haven't spoken about it, because they obviously have. But I have made it central to what I'm doing, central to my campaign and I have been trying to drive it in this campaign and welcome everything they have to say.
I have a comprehensive set of ideas about how we end poverty in this country. I think it is a huge moral issue facing the United States of America, and it is an enormous issue facing the African American community.
If you're black, you're much more likely to be poor, you're much less likely to have health care coverage. That community is hurt worse by poverty than any community in America. And it's our responsibility, not just for the African American community, but for America, as a nation, to take on this moral challenge, to try as best we can to walk in the shadow of Dr. King and try to make certain that we take this cause on, and I intend to do it.
It will be central to the work that I do as president of the United States, ending poverty in America.
BLITZER: Let's let Senator Clinton respond, and then Senator Obama.
CLINTON: Well, I respect John's commitment to ending poverty. That's why, 35 years ago, when I graduated from law school, I didn't go to work for a law firm. I went to work for Marian Wright Edelman at the Children's Defense Fund, because ending poverty - particularly ending poverty for children, has been the central core cause of everything that I've been doing for 35 years.
I care deeply about what for me is a mission and it does infuse everything that I do and why I'm in public office and why before I was in public service, chairing the Legal Services Corporation so that people got free legal aid when they would otherwise be put out of the courthouse, standing up time and time again for health care and education for abused and neglected kids and kids in the foster care system.
But I think that what we want to do is have a little reality check here, because how is it best to end poverty? We know we've got to maintain programs that are there to help people in need, but look at what's happened over the space of the last seven years. The average African American family has lost $2,600 in income.
Compare that to the prior eight years, when we had a president who took on the fights of the '90s and stood up against the Republicans, often at great cost. And the typical African American family went up $7,600 during the 1990s.
We know we've got to attack poverty by making sure the economy works for everybody. We have to lift up the idea of good jobs with good benefits, and I think that we know what we need to do. And if we have a president who is willing from day one to make it a mission to create shared prosperity again, that's going to be good for every American. And that's what I'm going to offer as president. That's what I've been talking about, that's what I've been working for and that's what I intend to do. And I think we can get results for every American.
BLITZER: Senator?
OBAMA: Well, I think John has run a terrific campaign and has focused on poverty during the campaign.
But, John, I have to say, first of all, I have put forward a comprehensive poverty plan that talks about early childhood education, health care for children, dealing with ex-offenders.
And I'll be, you know, happy to share it with you. I know that you don't have time to read all my stuff, just as I don't have time to read yours.
But understand this. I haven't just been talking about...
EDWARDS: Maybe I can read it when I can't go to sleep at night.
OBAMA: Well, there you go.
(LAUGHTER)
That's when I usually read my stuff, actually. But I think it's important.
It's not just talking about it during a campaign. You know, as I said, I started my career after college working in low-income neighborhoods, working in public housing projects, talking to children who would tell me that, when I asked them, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" They say, "I want to be a doctor," or, "I want to be a lawyer," had the same aspirations as every other child, but they were three, four grade levels behind.
And nobody had told them that the likelihood of them accomplishing their goals were each year diminished because we weren't putting the money in to make sure that they could actually achieve it.
And that's what I did as a civil rights attorney. That's what I did as a state legislator, providing health care for people who didn't have it, making sure that we are providing tax relief to those who need it, as opposed to those who don't.
So I want to make clear, John, that I think a lifetime commitment is how people are going to have to measure these issues.
One last point I want to make, because I think the media, you know, has really been focused a lot on race as we move down to South Carolina. And I have to say that, as I travel around South Carolina, I am absolutely convinced that white, black, Latino, Asian, people want to move beyond our divisions, and they want to join together...
(APPLAUSE)
... in order to create a movement for change in this country.
And, I mean, I'm not entirely faulting the media because, look, race is a factor in our society. There's no doubt that in a race where you've got an African-American, and a woman, and John...
(LAUGHTER)
... there's no doubt that that has piqued interest, but I guess what I'm saying is I don't want to sell the American people short.
They are desperate to move beyond the same, old arguments that we've been having and start actually getting something done in this country. And that's what the Democratic Party has been about.
(APPLAUSE)
The Republicans may have a different attitude, because they haven't been appearing before forums that are diverse. And the policies, frankly, that they've promoted -- and here I think all three of us agree -- the policies that they have promoted have not been good at providing ladders for upward mobility and opportunity for all people.
That is a fight that all of us will fight. But I don't want us to get drawn into this notion that somehow this is going to be a race that splits along racial lines.
BLITZER: Senator Edwards?
EDWARDS: Well, first of all, before I ever was involved in politics at all, I was involved with Urban Ministries in North Carolina, which is a group that takes care of the poorest of the poor, the homeless, the people who are struggling.
There are a lot of Americans -- I've bet some people here won't know this -- but I've been in a fight with Bill O'Reilly -- that's a fight I'd love to be in, by the way -- I've been in a fight with Bill O'Reilly about whether we, in fact, have 200,000 men and women who wore our uniform who are homeless every single night.
They are. There's absolutely no question about that. And anybody in this audience who's paying attention knows it.
But what I worry about is all the work that I've done at the poverty center that I started at the university, the work I did before I got involved in politics, all the substantive ideas, what I worry about is this starts to sound like a statistic.
You know, we talk about 37 million Americans who live in poverty -- that's more than the population of California -- in the richest nation on the planet.
I've been to hundreds of places around this country who take care of the poorest of the poor, extraordinary, wonderful places. But I'll never forget, just a year or so ago, I was with a woman in Kansas City who told me the story -- worked full-time, worked full-time. She had several children.
Every night in the winter, she could not pay both her heating bill and her rent. She had to choose. Single mom, working full-time, she had to put her kids in all of their winter clothing, in their coats, bundle them up in the bed together, put as many blankets on top of them as she could.
And she'd get them out of bed in the morning and send them off to school. And the last thing she would say to them? "Please, for goodness's sakes, don't tell anybody at school what's happening here, because they'll come and take you away from me."
EDWARDS: No mother in America should have to live like that. We are a better country than that.
(APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: Joe Johns.
JOHNS: Senator Obama, appreciating what you said about the media's preoccupation with race, there is...
OBAMA: Here we go.
JOHNS: Right. The Nobel Prize-winning African-American author, Toni Morrison, famously observed about Bill Clinton, "This is our first black president, blacker than any actual black person who could ever be elected in our children's lifetime."
Do you think Bill Clinton was our first black president?
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: Well, I think Bill Clinton did have an enormous affinity with the African-American community, and still does. And I think that's well earned.
Like John, one of the things that I'm always inspired by -- no, I'm -- this I'm serious about. I'm always inspired by young men and women who grew up in the South when segregation was still taking place, when, you know, the transformations that are still incomplete but at least had begun had not yet begun. And to see that transformation in their own lives I think that is powerful, and it is hopeful, because what it indicates is that people can change.
And each successive generation can, you know, create a different vision of how, you know, we have to treat each other. And I think Bill Clinton embodies that. I think he deserves credit for that.
Now, I haven't...
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: I have to say that, you know, I would have to, you know, investigate more of Bill's dancing abilities.
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: You know, and some of this other stuff before I accurately judge whether he was in fact a brother. But...
(APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: Let's let Senator Clinton weigh in on that.
CLINTON: Well, I'm sure that can be arranged.
(LAUGHTER)
CLINTON: You know, I want to echo what Barack has said and what each of us has said repeatedly over the last days. You know, this campaign is obviously an incredible opportunity for so many people to become involved, to be part of making history.
You have got a son of the South. You've got an African-American. You have a woman. What better way to celebrate the legacy of Dr. King than to look at this stage right here tonight?
(APPLAUSE)
CLINTON: And, you know, I'm reminded of one of my heroes, Frederick Douglas, who had on the masthead of his newspaper in upstate New York, "The North Star," that right has no sex and truth has no color. And that is really the profound message of Dr. King.
You know, the content of our character, who we are as people. And I think that my pride in being part of this campaign -- now, look, it's a hard-fought campaign.
We have differences, but it would be unbecoming of any of us to not share those differences and to make the points we're making because we are competing for the most important job in the world at a time when our country has been disgraced abroad, when we have denied and ignored the problems that are afflicting people in South Carolina and across America, when we know we will inherit a huge amount of damage from President Bush upon taking office on January 20th, 2009, whoever the next president is.
So we are passionate about our cause, our candidacy, what we believe, what we want to do for America. And it is a great privilege for me to be part of this. And I think it's important that we stay focused on the future, what we are going to do together to make our country once again what it should be, to deal with this myriad of problems that await, because we can bring our country together and we can set big goals again.
We can start acting like Americans and solve those problems together, and that's what I want to do.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: And I have to say, Wolf, that I especially appreciate the fact that Hillary and John were giving me a tough time, because that shows I'm doing pretty good.
(APPLAUSE)
I would be upset if there was too much civility in this debate, because it is competitive.
One last point I want to make about this, though, and John alluded to it on the poverty issue.
The one thing we -- when I say we should not focus on my race or Hillary's gender in terms of choosing a candidate, that is not to say that we should be ignoring the very real problems that still exist in terms of race in America.
(APPLAUSE)
So for example, if we know that in our criminal justice system, African-Americans and whites, for the same crime, receive - are arrested at very different rates, are convicted at very different rates, receive very different sentences.
(APPLAUSE)
That is something that we have to talk about. But that's a substantive issue and it has to do with how do we pursue racial justice.
If I am president, I will have a civil rights division that is working with local law enforcement so that they are enforcing laws fairly and justly. But I would expect...
(APPLAUSE)
... a white president or a woman president should want to do the same thing, because I believe that the pursuit of racial equality, of the perfection of this union, is not just a particular special interest issue of the African-American community. That is how all of us are going to move forward.
And to the extent that we don't deal with those issues, those longstanding, deep seeded issues, we will continue to be hampered. We will be competing with the world with one hand tied behind our backs.
CLINTON: And, you know, Wolf, the...
(APPLAUSE)
... the challenge is for us to address all of these issues. We obviously still have problems of gender equality. You know, equal pay is not yet equal.
(APPLAUSE)
A woman makes $0.77 on a dollar and women of color make $0.67. So there is a big agenda waiting for the Democratic Party. And we feel so passionately about this because we not only are running for office, but we each, in our own way, have lived it.
We have seen it. We have understood the pain and the injustice that has come because of race, because of gender. And it's imperative that, as we move forward with our campaign, we make it very clear that each of us will address these issues.
You don't hear the Republicans talking about any of this. You don't hear them talking about the disgrace of a criminal justice system that incarcerates so many more African-Americans proportionately than whites. You don't hear any kind of effort to help historically Black Colleges and Universities, something that I'm committed to doing in order to...
(APPLAUSE)
... make it clear that these are important institutions that have led the way for so many great leaders to be where they are today.
So we have a specific set of policies and priorities that are really part of who we are, as well as part of what the Democratic Party stands for.
BLITZER: I'm going to let the son of the south wrap this subject up and then we'll move on to Suzanne.
EDWARDS: Well, I appreciate what both of them said about the transformative effect of having lived with this. I mean, I grew up, I was born here in South Carolina, grew up in South Carolina, Georgia and North Carolina, and, in my early years, I lived in the segregated south.
I mean, I saw up close the impact it had on people's lives and I saw up close the blood, sweat and tears and lives of those, including some people who are in this audience tonight, what they went through to bring about this change.
And there is a great deal -- Hillary says the Republicans don't talk about it. There's some things we don't talk about, either, and if you look at what's...
(APPLAUSE)
... if you look at what's happening, my father, who, I mentioned earlier, is sitting in the audience, he raised me to believe that the men and women who worked in the mill with him were worth every bit as much as the man that owned that mill.
(APPLAUSE)
And if we really believe that every American is of equal value, no matter who their family is, where the live or what the color of their skin -- when are we going to start living together? Because you look at what's happening -- I announced my campaign from the ninth ward of New Orleans.
I think a lot of America was shocked to see those pictures coming out of the ninth ward. And you can't pick on New Orleans. The same thing's true in many communities all over this country.
I mean, we have got to -- both in housing policy and economic policy and every other way -- create the kind of opportunity for people to be able to move. It shouldn't just be that rich folks are able to, if they don't like their neighborhood or don't like their school or are worried about crime in their neighborhood, they're the only ones that can go somewhere else.
Everybody in America ought to have that chance, at the same time that we're investing in a serious way to improving all of our neighborhoods.
BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux?
(APPLAUSE)
MALVEAUX: To Senator Clinton. In New Hampshire, you said you found your own voice, but increasingly there are people who believe that it's your husband's voice that has become too loud.
MALVEAUX: Congressman Clyburn earlier said today, "I think he can afford to tone it down." Is there a risk that he is overshadowing your message and your voice?
CLINTON: Well, I think that he is very much advocating on my behalf, and I appreciate that. He is a tremendous asset. And he feels very strongly about this country and what's at stake and what out future should be.
I believe that this campaign is not about our spouses. It is about us. It is about each of us individually. Michelle and Elizabeth are strong and staunch advocates for their husbands, and I respect that.
But, at the end of the day, voters are going to have to choose among us, and I think it's fair to say that really the most important decision is who would be the best president on day one, to deal with all the problems that we know are waiting for our next president? And the subsidiary question is, who can best withstand the Republicans and all that we know is coming from them in order to win in November 2008?
I believe strongly that I can make the best case for that. Obviously, my colleagues believe just as strongly.
So I think that we need to keep our focus on what's at stake in the election, what the future holds, what each of us will bring to this campaign and the presidency, because ultimately it's really not about any of us. It's about the people of South Carolina. It's about the people of America.
And my voice is their voice. What I want to do is take not only my 35 years of experience into the White House, but I want to take all those voices of these extraordinary Americans who come up to me and tell me their stories and give me hope and inspiration that I can do something for them. Because that's what it's about for me.
Politics is not a game. It is the most serious of business. We have seen that over the last seven years. We have seen what a difference it makes when we have a president who is indifferent to and insensitive about the real-life struggles of Americans, and I want to be the champion that once again gives Americans the feeling that they have a president who cares about them and can produce results for them. And that's what I intend to do.
BLITZER: I'm going to let both of the other senators respond. Then we'll take a quick break.
Go ahead, Senator Obama.
OBAMA: Well, Hillary's right. All of us have extraordinarily smart and effective advocates in our spouses.
And, as I've said before, I do not at all begrudge -- I would expect that Bill Clinton would campaign vigorously on your behalf. Obviously, he's the ex-president, so that means that the gets a lot of outsized attention and there's nothing long with that. That's, as you said, an asset to the campaign. I have been troubled, and we already had this discussion, so I don't want to go over it again, the degree to which my record is not accurately portrayed. But that's standard practice in some of our political battles. What I do want to focus on, though, is how important it is, when you talked about taking on the Republicans, how important it is I think to redraw the political map in this country. And the reason I say that is that we have gone through the 2000 election, the 2004 election, both of which were disappointing elections. But the truth is that we as Democrats have not had a working majority in a very long time. And what I mean by that is a working majority that could push through the kinds of bold initiatives that all of us have proposed. And one of the reasons that I am running for president is because I believe that I can inspire new people to get involved in the process, that I can reach out to independents and, yes, some Republicans who have also lost trust in their government and want to see something new. When you look at Bush and Cheney and their record, the one good thing they've done for us is they have given their party a very bad name. (APPLAUSE) That gives us a unique opportunity in this election, and what we can't do, I think, is just to take the playing field as a given. We want to expand the scope of the electorate so that we can start getting a 60 percent majority, more folks in the House, more folks in the Senate, and I think that's something I can do.
OBAMA: And that's why we've seen record turnout in every election so far. I'm not taking all the credit for it. I think people are voting against George Bush. But I also think that we've inspired people who had not previously voted before, and that's what the Democratic Party has to do.
BLITZER: Senator Edwards?
EDWARDS: I would just add on it's just really important for primary voters in South Carolina and all the other subsequent primaries to understand they're not just voting in a primary. They're voting to establish what we're going to be doing next November and who our candidate will be next November. And it's becoming increasingly likely, I think, that John McCain is going to be the Republican candidate.
Now, here's what we have to be thinking about. Who will be tough enough and strong enough? And who can compete against John McCain in every place in America?
You know, I believe that I won't just be here campaigning in the South Carolina primary. When I'm the Democratic nominee, I'll be back in South Carolina campaigning for the general election.
And we can't concede places like South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Missouri, all these places around America where we know, everyone knows, that we always do well -- all three of us have been through this -- we always do well in Chicago, or New York, or Los Angeles, Seattle.
We do well in the big urban areas. The question is: Are we competitive in the rural areas, in the tougher places for Democrats to compete?
And the only thing I would say -- and I think it has nothing to do with race and gender. Let me be really clear about that. It's amazing now that being the white male...
OBAMA: You're feeling all defensive about it, John. It's all right, man.
EDWARDS: ... is different.
What I was going to say, though, is being able to go everywhere in America and campaign and to compete -- and I grew up in the rural south, in small towns all across the rural south, and I think I can go everywhere and compete head-to-head with John McCain.
And, actually, the last time I saw one of your polls that had all three of us against John McCain, I was the one that beat John McCain everywhere in America.
(APPLAUSE)
And I think we need to be able to have a candidate when people are voting -- it's not the only consideration. Lord knows, if you don't agree with what we stand for, and you don't believe in us, our character and our ability to lead this country, you should not vote for us, no matter what it means for the general election.
But if you believe in our passion, our strength, our toughness, our independence from these special interests -- I've never taken money from a Washington lobbyist or a special interest PAC, which is different than these two guys, over our whole career.
But what I would say that I think what that means is I can go anywhere in America and compete against John McCain and win.
BLITZER: We have to take a quick break, but we have a lot more to talk about, much more of this presidential debate here in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
OBAMA: ... where in northern Nevada, in places like Elko, I won by 30 points. And we were attracting Independents and some Republicans. You know, this is the same way that I was able to win the election in Illinois, going to downstate Illinois. So, I think it's important for us not to assume that we can't reach out to people of all -- of all persuasions, and I want to just take one last example on this, and that is on the issue of faith.
OBAMA: You know, I am a proud Christian. And the...
(APPLAUSE) I think there have been times -- there have been times where our Democratic Party did not reach out as aggressively as we could to evangelicals, for example, because the assumption was, well, they don't agree with us on choice, or they don't agree with us on gay rights, and so we just shouldn't show up. And when you don't show up, if you're not going to church, then you're not talking to church folk. And that means that people have a very right-wing perspective in terms of what faith means and of defining our faith.
BLITZER: All right.
OBAMA: And as somebody who believes deeply in the precepts of Jesus Christ, particularly treating the least of these in a way that he would, that it is important for us to not concede that ground. Because I think we can go after those folks and get them. (APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: All right. Suzanne has a question on faith to all of you.
CLINTON: But Wolf...
BLITZER: Hold...
CLINTON: ... let me just get in here, because there are a lot of polls showing that I'm beating them higher than anybody else. I don't think that has -- I don't think, frankly, that has much to recommend this far from an election. If John is right and Senator McCain is the Republican nominee, we know that once again we will have a general election about national security. That is what will happen. I believe of any one of us, I am better positioned and better able to take on John McCain or any Republican when it comes to issues about protecting and defending our country and promoting our interest in the world. And if it is indeed the classic Republican campaign, I've been there. I've done that. They've been after me for 16 years, and much to their dismay I am still here. And I intend to be still here when that election comes around and we win in November 2008. (APPLAUSE)
EDWARDS: I just want to add that I think it's about -- I don't think it's about polls either, Hillary, by the way. But I do think it is about fundamental differences between us and them. And this is a difference that you and I have. You know, I think that John McCain has made central to his time in public life, in his campaign, campaign finance reform and cleaning up the money in politics. And I think it's dangerous for us to send somebody against him who presents a contrast to what he represents. And I'm proud of the fact that I've never taken money from a Washington lobbyist or a special interest PAC.
EDWARDS: And I have a question -- I have a question that I'm interested in hearing you respond to. You've talked a lot about day one. I've committed -- I don't know what Barack has said about this -- but I've committed not to have any corporate lobbyists working in my White House on the first day that I'm president. Will you make the same commitment?
CLINTON: Well, you know, John, I will make the commitment to have people in the White House who are honest and trustworthy and put the interests of the United States first. But I think...
EDWARDS: Is that a no?
CLINTON: You know what? I don't know. (LAUGHTER) I don't know, because I'm not in favor of corporate lobbyists, but you keep drawing these artificial distinctions. You take money from people who employ lobbyists, who are married to lobbyists, who are the children of lobbyists. And, you know, at some point this gets really hard to take, because if you are someone like I am, who has withstood the full force of corporate lobbyists, starting with the health insurance companies, and the drug companies, and the oil companies, and everybody that I've taken on for all of these years, you know, I think I'm independent and tough enough to be able to deal with anybody. And that's what I intend to do. (APPLAUSE)
EDWARDS: Those people, though -- here's the problem, Hillary. Everybody is listening. They can make their own judgment about this. They don't have to depend on us. When somebody gives you millions and millions of dollars, I think they expect something. I don't think they're doing it for nothing.
CLINTON: Well, John, trial lawyers have given you millions and millions of dollars. So...
EDWARDS: And what they expect from me is they expect me to stand up for democracy, for the right to jury trial, for the right for little people to be heard in the courtroom. And that is exactly what I stand up for. That is not the same thing. That is not the same thing as corporate lobbyists who are in there every single day lobbying against the interests of middle-class Americans. And I think we need a president who can stand up. We have a difference about this. You're entitled to your view. But we have a real difference about it.
CLINTON: No, we don't have a real difference. Where we stand is -- where I stand is for public financing. I'm going to do everything I can to get public financing, to get the money out of American politics. But, you know, Barack has a lot of lobbyists who are leading his campaign here in South Carolina. John has had lobbyists who've been working hard for him all of these years. The point is that you've got to say no. You've got to say no.
OBAMA: Let me interject.
CLINTON: And, yes, I think that we will say no consistently in order to have a positive agenda that is actually going to make a difference. Do you have to stand up to the lobbyists? Yes. But the lobbyists represent the interests that are paying the lobbyists. So to go and focus on the lobbyists, you know, kind of misses the point.
OBAMA: Let me just interject on this. Hillary, you're right. Nobody's hands are perfectly clean in politics. That is true. I mean, there a distinction, though, between not taking PAC and federal lobbyist money and having that as a major way of driving your campaign and having some ancillary involvement. But, you know, I don't want to go down that route. What I want to really focus on is this issue of national security, because I think you've repeated this a number of times. You are the person best prepared on national security issues on day one, and so if you're running against John McCain, that you can go toe-to-toe. I fundamentally disagree with that. And I want to tell you why, because I believe that the way we are going to take on somebody like a John McCain on national security is not that we're sort of -- we've been sort of like John McCain, but not completely, you know, we voted for the war, but we had reservations. I think it's going to be somebody who can serve a strong contrast and say, "We've got to overcome the politics of fear in this country." As commander-in-chief... (APPLAUSE) As commander-in-chief, all of us would have a responsibility to keep the American people safe. That's our first responsibility. And I would not hesitate to strike against anybody who would do Americans or American interests' harm. But what I do believe...
BLITZER: All right.
OBAMA: Wait, Wolf, let me finish. I was listening to these folks quite some time. What I do believe is that we have to describe a new foreign policy that says, for example, I will meet not just with our friends, but with our enemies, because I remember what John F. Kennedy said, that we should never negotiate out of fear, but we should never fear to negotiate. Having that kind of posture is the way I think we effectively debate the Republicans on this issue. Because if we just play into the same fear-mongering that they have been engaged in since 9/11, then we are playing on their battlefield, but, more importantly, we are not doing what's right in order to rebuild our alliances, repair our relationships around the world, and actually make us more safe in the long term.
EDWARDS: And it requires that -- wait, wait. Both of them talked about it. You've got to let me say a word.
BLITZER: All right, 30 seconds, please.
EDWARDS: What it requires is having something beyond a short- term foreign policy of convenience. I mean, Bush has done extraordinary damage to us.
EDWARDS: But if we have a visionary foreign policy, where we re- establish America as a moral leader in the world, where we do the things that we need to do to combat global poverty, to deal with the spread of HIV/AIDS, the spread of disease at large, economic development, what it does is it takes an entire generation of young people who are sitting on the fence as I speak and on one side is Al Qaida and Bin Laden, Islamic jihad, and on the other side is the United States of America, which way do they go? That depends entirely on us. If they continue to see this foreign policy of belligerence, selfishness, only interested in the expansion of American power, we will drive them in the other direction. If, on the other hand, they see America as the light, the source of hope and opportunity, it will pull them to us like a magnet. We need to be that light again. (APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: Thank you, Senator. We are completely out of time, but we have time for one final question that I'd like to ask all three of you to respond and, if possible, within one minute or less, and it's an important question on this important day. And, Senator Edwards, let me start with you. If Dr. Martin Luther King were alive today, unfortunately, he's not, but if he were alive today, why do you think he would or why should he endorse you?
EDWARDS: For two reasons. One is that -- we've talked about this a great deal already -- I met with Martin III in Atlanta on Saturday and he was very kind about me pushing the single biggest issue -- two biggest issues that Dr. King stood for, which are the issues of equality and ending poverty in America. I've been on at least part of his poor people's campaign. I was in Marks, Mississippi, among other places. I mean, I have been pushing this issue as aggressively and as loudly as I possibly can and I will do it as long as I'm alive, because it is central to what I believe. He also worked very hard for the Voting Rights Act and he would look at an America today where almost half of our people don't vote. They're disenchanted. They -- Barack's spoken about this. They feel disengaged. And what we need is a president of the United States who actually believes to their core in equality, who's willing to fight for that equality, who's willing to do things that may not be politically popular. And fighting to end poverty in America may not get you any votes, but it is the right thing to do. (APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: Senator?
OBAMA: Well, I don't think Dr. King would endorse any of us. I think what he would call upon the American people to do is to hold us accountable, and this goes to the core differences, I think, in this campaign. I believe change does not happen from the top down. It happens from the bottom up. Dr. King understood that. (APPLAUSE) It was those women who were willing to walk instead of ride the bus, union workers who are willing to take on violence and intimidation to get the right to organize. It was women who decided, "I'm as smart as my husband. I'd better get the right to vote."
OBAMA: them arguing, mobilizing, agitating, and ultimately forcing elected officials to be accountable, I think that's the key.
So that has been a hallmark of my career, transparency and accountability, getting the American people involved. That's how we're going to bring about change. That's why I want to be president of the United States, to respect the power of the American people to bring about change.
(APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: Senator Clinton?
CLINTON: Well, there is no doubt that change comes from the extraordinary efforts of the American people. I've seen it in my life. I'm sitting here as a result of that change.
It is also true -- and Dr. King understood this. He campaigned for political leaders. He lobbied them. He pushed them. He cajoled. He did everything he could to get them over the line so that they would be part of the movement that he gave his life for.
There are people sitting in this audience right now, John Lewis, Jim Clyburn, they were part of those kinds of efforts, going so far as they could to make it clear that we had to live up to our values and our ideals.
And then there was a meeting of morality and politics. And the political leaders finally responded.
The American people should not have to work so hard to get leaders who will actually help them and recognize we are strongest when we lead by our values. Dr. King transformed the lives of so many of us, and I intend to do whatever I can to make his legacy real in the lives of Americans.
BLITZER: Senators, that ends our debate. Thank you so very much. Thanks to all of you.